Angelqueen.org Forum Index

For Purity and Tradition in Catholicism



Assisi-Contrast: Lefebvre and Benedict XVI

What are the important differences in first principles?

Tracing the direct line from the 1949 Holy Office Letter to the Prayer Meeting at Assisi


Page 5

Go to page 1, 2, 3, 4, 5






View previous topic :: View next topic  




Joined: 05 May 2008
Posts: 72

PostPosted: Mon Jan 31, 2011 11:23 am    Post subject:

Reply with quote

Michael Wilson wrote:

Drew stated:


1) The author of this term is Pastor Wilhelm Schmidt, a Protestant minister who made the suggestion to Cardinal Augustin Bea, the ecumenist, modernist biblical scholar, patron of Fr. Annibale Bugnini, and confessor to Pope Pius XII, who in turn recruited the support of Fr. Ratzinger who then convinced Cardinal Frings to bring it to the Council.
This story has been personally verified by Fr. Franz Schmidberger by contacting Pastor Schmidt. Do you think Pastor Schmidt considers “subsist” as a term of identity?

Drew, where did you get this information on the origin of the "subsist" term?
BTW, I agree with you (and Cardinal Ratzinger) that there is a contradiction between the term "Is" and "Subsists In".

Michael Wilson:

The information was in an address given by Fr. Franz Schmidberger, First Assistant to the Superior General of the SSPX, at St. Vincent de Paul Church in Kansas City, Missouri, on February 22, 2001. The pertinent paragraph is:

Fr. schmidberger wrote:

"If we were to clearly identify the Catholic Church simpliciter —that is, just simply —with the Church of Christ, the whole ecumenical movement would burn out. The Protestants would be angered that the Catholic Church had defined that their churches were not the Church of Christ!" And, so, the liberal spirits wanted to find another notion and another word to give the definition. They got the help they needed from a German Protestant, Pastor Schmidt, an observer invited by Cardinal Bea to take part in the Second Vatican Council. And he made the written proposal that in this definition, "The Church of Christ is the Catholic Church," the word "is" be replaced by "subsistit in." He handed this proposal to the then Fr. Joseph Ratzinger, who was at this time the Council expert [peritus] of Cardinal Frings from Cologne, Germany. Fr. Ratzinger in turn gave the proposal to Cardinal Frings who presented it before the Council, and the words "subsistit in" were incorporated into Lumen Gentium. So it has its origin from the Protestants. We were made aware of this fact by a priest from South Tyrol [old Austria, annexed to become today’s northern Italy —Ed.], who wrote last year saying that he knew this Protestant pastor, and that he was still living. We asked him to send us the address. So we wrote to this Protestant pastor, and he confirmed by a letter of August 3rd that he was the one who handed over this proposal to Fr. Ratzinger. So we see that Fr. Ratzinger had taken a very active role to introduce the words "subsistit in" and rewrite a very important definition of the Catholic Church.

The link to the entire address is:




View user's profileSend private message


Display posts from previous:   


Go to page 1, 2, 3, 4, 5




Page 5 of 5